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 To breed or not to (sub)breed?.. 
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 To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
I`m just curious to what you guys think as to whether or not it`s appropriate to ´meddle in` by pointing it out to farmers who are breaking the unwritten rules in conjunction to the sub-breeds?
Personally, I haven`t been able to take a stand in the matter jet, as I think the arguments are equally strong on both sides, witch means I`ll be like an impartial debate "leader"..
- Making a sub breed is hard work over a long time, and we`re all grown up in a culture where Copyright act is not just a law, but its principles are part of our basic morality, so to speak. -Like it`s wrong to steal, use violence etc. do we know it`s wrong to steal or copy off other peoples work before we know the law. With that in mind, is it not strange that we react when we see copied subs being sold as real, breeds being sold under false flags, and so on.
- On the other side, has CB no rules that regulate what we can or can not breed. According to the rules, are we entitled to breed every color, pattern, etc as we please, regardless what others may have done in forehand..

¤ And before we start.. Please remember to respect everybody`s right to share their opinion, even though it differs from your own ¤ ;)

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Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:44 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
I think you raise a good question.

My opinion is that it's okay to point out to users that they aren't selling pure subs; as in many cases, they are unaware. Then, if those users choose to still breed those creatures, I think that's okay too. As long as they're not lying about what they have. Many generation breeds (like the peace cub) are very adorable creatures. It's okay to sell them if you tell users they aren't real subs on the MSL. As for copied creatures, I think everyone has to decide for themselves what is moral in that situation. I personally released all of my fakes a few years ago when I realized they were not genuine.

I think in most cases, users aren't trying to lie to others or anything. They probably purchased the creatures from another farmer who also believed they were selling genuine subs. I think there are only a handful of farmers who knowingly sell fakes to the community, so it's okay to let those farmers know, as long as you're not being hateful about it.

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Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:13 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
You sure have some really good points here! -And I think you are definitely on to something when you specify that notifying people they`ve got a fake breed has to be done in the nicest possible way, and that we can`t force people to follow the sub-breeders` unwritten rules if they don`t want to..

But what if we take it a step further; That the sub-breed creator find their breed being copied and sold under false flag? Should they be allowed to put some more pressure on the ones "stealing" their work?..

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Thu Jul 17, 2014 9:42 am
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
I, kind of, had the same thoughts here. So that is my opinion, sort of.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=145489

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Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:56 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
That sure was an interesting discussion, as it covered several of the moral aspects & unwritten rules in conjunction to the breeds..

But then again.. It`s the creators who sets the rules. By not setting any limitations to what we can or can not breed, -or sell, they`ve actually decided against the sub breed creators..
The sub-breed supporters have actually no right to deny the breeding & selling of copies. By saying so, they`re tecnically lying, misleading and/or kind of "hijacking" the decision making..

But then again.. Sub-breed creation has become a significant part of the game, particularly among the adult players (-my self included).
Would the solution be to create a game within the game, so to speak, where those who want to take part in the sub-breeding form & sign into an "under-group" where their rules apply?..

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Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:20 am
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
Gry wrote:
The sub-breed supporters have actually no right to deny the breeding & selling of copies. By saying so, they`re tecnically lying, misleading and/or kind of "hijacking" the decision making..


I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the sub-breed supporters are hijacking the decision making when they tell others they can't sell copies? If so, then I could see where you are going. However, like I said in my previous post, I don't think we can tell anyone that they *can't* sell them, only that they aren't genuine and that they *should* tell the public when they sell them to others- because it is lying when you know you have fakes and pass them off as real. So you're right, I don't think the supporters should go around telling others what they can or cannot sell. They should just do the best they can to make sure farmers are aware that the creatures are not genuine subs.

Gry wrote:
Would the solution be to create a game within the game, so to speak, where those who want to take part in the sub-breeding form & sign into an "under-group" where their rules apply?..


No I don't think so. I think the CB community should remain how it is. I realize that we're keeping the rules of the fakes.. But.. There will always be those people. But here's why I think that:
I don't think it's practical. All that is doing is dividing the community between itself. Those who choose not to play by those rules will still have fakes and sell them. And will still be able to create more. The issue with fakes is that it undermines the work of the sub creators. So, having a separate group only means that the people in that group aren't undermining the creators. Not that the undermining isn't still occurring. It's just separating those people, not fixing the problem on either side.

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Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:39 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
MarioJesnifer wrote:
Gry wrote:
The sub-breed supporters have actually no right to deny the breeding & selling of copies. By saying so, they`re tecnically lying, misleading and/or kind of "hijacking" the decision making..


I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the sub-breed supporters are hijacking the decision making when they tell others they can't sell copies? If so, then I could see where you are going..


(He, he..) Yes. -To be specific; That the ones that support the so-called sub-breeder`s rights in a way are overriding/overruling the creators/site-owners decisions in this matter.

I am a sub-breed creator myself, so there`s no doubt that I would have hit the roof if somebody copied my bears & claimed them for their own. I`m currently working on my next two breeds, where the pattern seem to be set for the Ponyapans, so I can`t deny that I have a great deal of support for the sub-breeders -side.
But it has to be done rightfully.. Do you guys think CB would be best served if the site-owners included something to protect the sub-breed creators` rights in the rules? -And if so, how far should they go in this matter?..

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Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:09 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
Gry wrote:
MarioJesnifer wrote:
Gry wrote:
The sub-breed supporters have actually no right to deny the breeding & selling of copies. By saying so, they`re tecnically lying, misleading and/or kind of "hijacking" the decision making..


I don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the sub-breed supporters are hijacking the decision making when they tell others they can't sell copies? If so, then I could see where you are going..


(He, he..) Yes. -To be specific; That the ones that support the so-called sub-breeder`s rights in a way are overriding/overruling the creators/site-owners decisions in this matter.

I am a sub-breed creator myself, so there`s no doubt that I would have hit the roof if somebody copied my bears & claimed them for their own. I`m currently working on my next two breeds, where the pattern seem to be set for the Ponyapans, so I can`t deny that I have a great deal of support for the sub-breeders -side.
But it has to be done rightfully.. Do you guys think CB would be best served if the site-owners included something to protect the sub-breed creators` rights in the rules? -And if so, how far should they go in this matter?..


It feels kind of late for me to jump in to the debate now, but I will anyways. :P

As far as creating rules about it, I'm not one to say what others are allowed to do, but farmers have an awful lot of freedom to do whatever they want. I don't think any length of an individual's freedom should have to be taken away just for this.

Sub breed creators definitely deserve some form of rights as protection. I think the situation would be best-served if the long-suggested idea of having it marked on purebred subs what breed they were was implemented on the game. That's honestly the only logical thing I think should or can be done. Hopefully, my message was clear enough. :)

Quote:
was thinking of how people with subbreeds sometimes get their creations remade and sold off when they don't want them to, or they might give one to someone and that someone turns around and breeds and sells its offspring. So I thought of something that might help just a little: offical sub-breed stamps. Like a name brand logo. Basically it would allow the original creator to mark a creature as part of the sub breed by giving it a "stamp". You'd have to give it to one account (I assume the one who's name is listed as the creator) and make it so they could stamp a creature not on their account so if someone asked their pet to be approved the creator could do so without having to trade then stamp then trade back (I also assume the person stamping would look into the lineage of a creature before they would stamp it).

Its probably would require a lot of programing, but its an idea to help support the sub breeders who worked so long and hard for their creations. It would also hopefully discourage people from attempting to recreate a sub breed.


viewtopic.php?f=8&t=47568

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Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:53 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
Elorae wrote:
Step 1
The sub-breed submission form will have a section that will ask for the creator to link to the male & female creatures they want the label to be put on.
**Both creatures must follow the MSL requirements, and both would be checked for 20 generations of perfect specimens in both of their lineages.
Step 2
The male & female will then be given a unique colored text label (in some color that stands out) on their creature page that says the official name of the sub-breed and who created that sub-breed.
** The reason I don't suggest having a label that all sub-breeds share is because then if a sub-breed is bred with another sub-breed the label would be passed down but the offspring would not breed true to form. (Example: A Cashew Cub being bred with a Trinity Cub, while both sub-breeds, their offspring would not be pure.)
Step 3
The label is passed down to offspring, but only if BOTH parents have the SAME label.

This is from: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=146625

I saw your idea; and it made me think of this one from an old discussion, hadleyelizabeth.
I think that most, if not all, of these problems would be solved with this implement. As I searched farther back, I saw *very* many of these types of suggestions, and just added the one I remembered. I love this idea. Farmers would be able to quickly tell if their subs are genuine, and then no one would be stepping on any toes or hijacking the decision making process.

As for the site creating rights/rules, wouldn't this become unnecessary if this is implemented? I might be overlooking something, but even if dishonest people continued to make fakes, wouldn't the stamp being there or not being there (whatever form it is, text color, a stamp on the detail page, whatever) eliminate the possibility of them selling these creatures as genuine when other farmers can easily tell?
This was a really good point, hadleyelizabeth. To be honest, I didn't know of a perfect solution until you mentioned it.

Gry, I think you raised a lot of good points. I personally can't think of a negative consequence of this suggestion, but you might be able to see it from a different perspective. I think you were right when you said that by not telling others they can't breed these creatures is technically being dishonest, since there is no rules otherwise. However, in this scenario, they wouldn't gain anything from it, since members would know whether or not they were genuine.

I would, however, like to mention that sub-creators would have to be careful on which creatures they bred. What I mean is, you submit a perfect adult of the 20th generation. But, it's very likely that at 20 generations (when the creatures' offspring should all look identical) you have more than one female or more than one male. So it would be necessary for the creator to release the siblings of the chosen two that got the stamp for this theory, because the siblings wouldn't pass the stamp if they weren't the two chosen. However, I'm sure the creators could figure out something else for this. I'm just putting in the only thing I would think of that would be a caution.

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Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:13 pm
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Post Re: To breed or not to (sub)breed?..
hadleyelizabeth wrote:
It feels kind of late for me to jump in to the debate now, but I will anyways. :P


First of all do I think you`ve got some pretty good points there :D
..-And it`s definitely not to late to join the debate! -So, just for the record: Everybody are welcome to jump in at any time! -The more participants the better, actually!
I wanted to create a substantive, unbiased debate around this issue. -A discussion where everybody are welcome to share their opinion, but no one`s allowed to "attack" those who`s opinion differ from their own..
Since I haven`t taken a definite stand in this matter myself, do I think it`s easier for me to remain an impartial debate leader than someone who has taken a stand.
- Besides, I really enjoy being able to "listen" & learn from a neutral perspective, and have the ability to ask equally critical questions etc. to both sides. I usually have an opinion about absolutely everything, so I had to grab this, for me, utterly rare opportunity with both hands (lol).

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Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:21 pm
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